B.Enebish: Politics were leading to a long delay

In the interview with MMJ, B. Enebish (former CEO of Erdenes Tavan Tolgoi and Erdenes MGL) explains why the company sees slower progress than expected.

Erdenes Tavan Tolgoi (“Erdenes TT”) recently obtained approval of the feasibility study for its Coal Handling and Preparation Plant (“CHPP”). When you handed over your position what was the status of the company and TavanTolgoi project (“TT project”)? The power plant, CHPP, railway, and the like?

Financially, I handed over the company that had a balance of tugrik 80 billion or approximately $60 million in its account after making payments for routine and contract operations. The company was conducting operations smoothly and coal mining and export regularly and had an opportunity to mine 3 million tons of coal at the end of the year. In respect of additional financing we conducted negotiations with international banks and financial institutions and some Japanese companies for month sand as a result, we made financial deals with several advanced options some of which were exposed to the Board of Directors and were at the level for authorization. Concerning the TT project we commenced the feasibility study for the CHPP that is of vital importance in terms of coal export and price and completed the feasibility study for the 300 MW power plant. I handed over my position when I made sure that feasibility study for a mine was commenced and approved to develop the Western Tsankh area, one of the main part of the coking coal deposit, and launched its operations and enabled the companyto mine coal in this area and make a profit. We invited Peabody Energy, USA, to discuss an opportunity for it to operate as a mining operator/contract miner at the West Tsankhi mine. With respect to the railway this matter came to a dead end due to politics and politicians. The water supply project hadn’t started yet because of a protest of the local hural/legislature and rulers but remained for review.This is in brief.

One-year contract miner bidding for the Western Tsankhi mine was announced. No foreign companies but two local consortiums are competing for it. You were proposing three options about development of the Western Tsankhi area. What is the role of the Western Tsankhi coal field for Erdenes TT?

The Western Tsankhi area of the TT deposit is the principal one that has about the same reserves and coal of the almost same quality as the Eastern Tsankhi area and where a mine capable of mining 20 million tons of coal per annum can be set up in the future. As coal mining and export mean revenue and cash that is why major international coal mining and trade related companies propose to cooperate at the Western Tsankhi coal field. As I was well aware that proposals made by foreign companies including those from the USA, China, Russia, Japan,Korea and others,process of ongoing government level negotiations and its details, and geopolitics and politics were leading to a long delay I proposed three options on development of the Western Tsankhi area. First, as a mining license holder Erdenes TT will receive a company royalty and revenue after allowing a consortium of foreign companies to mine in this area; second, to set up a subsidiary of Erdenes TT on condition that it will mine and develop coal in the Western Tsankhi area, raise initial capital through classical stock financing option or selling particular part, maybe, more or less than 50% of the subsidiary’s shares to major foreign companies, and cooperate with the foreign companies; third, Erdenes TT as a licensee will mine and sell coal.Even today, one of the options can be used for development of the Western Tsankhi area. The first two options are more positive for Erdenes TT’s international listing and company’s valuation on foreign investors’ side and more appropriate for engagement in geopolitics and regional economic cooperation. The third option or development by the company itself is positive for Erdenes TT in terms of profit but it is more likely to raise financing of millions dollars to be needed for establishment of a mine and development at the initial phase, and face risks of coal export, transit transport, and cost increase.

We developed feasibility study for development of the Western Tsankhi area for about half a year and obtained approval from the Minerals Council and Ministry to commence work with a view to saving time regardless of which option could be selected. Then I handed over my position after launching establishment of the mine in the fall 2012. If the operations commenced in the Western Tsankhi area had proceeded at that pace they could have stripped the overburden in the winter, and made a sales agreement and started coal export by this time. As I see it Erdenes TT faced a 4-5-month delay until they understood that coal mining in the Western Tsankhi area meant an additional source of revenue and financing for company. As far as I am concerned I had the courage to open the Western Tsankhi mine at the company level in the fall 2012 the Western Tsankhi area taking the position that we started the overburden stripping and development not to waste time and revenue by ourselves and conducted and continued government level negotiations with international companies while this work was underway. I made a decision almost by myself and started this work after I exposed it to and got the members of the Board of Directors to understand it and urged them. Otherwise, politicians, officials, and ministers wouldn’t respond if we wanted to obtain approval at the ministry and government levels. I exposed it to and attempted to obtain approval from the former and incumbent Prime Ministers at that time but they tended to be cautious. Therefore, I decided it by myself. Now, I think it was correct.

The media critically reported that the coal agreement made with Chalco was unprofitable for our side and badfor some time. Negotiations were conducted with Chalco to amend the agreement and they didn’t amend it but started to export coal. Was amending the agreement hard or wasn’t the agreement so bad that it could be criticized?

Very misguided understanding, information, and talks about this agreement go around intentionally and unintentionally. My team had often reported and explained this coal sell and supply agreement through the media since the summer 2011 or coal export started. We delivered a detailed report to a sitting of the Economic Standing Committee, Mongolia’s Parliament (State Great Hural)in September 2012. The agreement is misrepresented quite a lot without proper  understanding and awareness of the details of its provisions.The coal supply agreement made with Chalco is a good and mutual beneficial business agreement entered into between one of the largest China’s state-owned companies and Mongolia’s state-owned company. It was also the same in the circumstances at that time. Even today, it is seen as the same. Given the speech made by Prime Minister N.Altankhuyag and some ministers they spoke based on incomplete information and inaccurate calculation provided without a good understanding of the specifics of the agreement. The process of the agreement and ongoing negotiations with Chalco were regularly reported to the Boards of Directors of Erdenes TTand Erdenes MGL and Government. The Parliament’s guidance was initially issued under resolution No. 40 on December 4, 2008, to sell production and get upfront payment in developing TT and OyuTolgoi (“OT”) deposits. A cabinet meeting of the Coalition Government held on June 10, 2011, also provided the same guidance. Chalco was elected and awarded the agreement after negotiations were conducted with and proposals received from a number of companies on condition that we will get substantial upfront payment for sales. When you talk about substantial upfront payment companies engaging in negotiations find it very hard. Everything – the negotiations conducted, agreement made, and exposure to and approval from the Government – went by laws and company regulations.

A drop in the coal price may have been a  reason for criticism of the agreement?

The incumbent Mining Minister lied for a while that the agreement under which the Chinese side could buy coal at a low price in case the coal price dropped and Mongolians weren’t able to sell it at the increased price in case the price rose was made. He gave the report based on groundless and inaccurate calculationat the Economic Standing Committee. There is no such thing. Moreover, misguided inaccurate information that the agreement under which Erdenes TT will sell coal at $70 in a 5-year period whereas other companies sold it at $90-110 was entered into was made public. $110 is the price at which coal was supplied for steel mills in Baotou in northern China and which was used by our Mining Ministry as our reference priceto impose high tax. $90 at which Energy Resources LLC sold coal wasthe price of classified third seam coal of a better quality sorted out at the Gants Mod border port of entryinside China’s border. It is easy to understand for one who comprehends things and has knowledge of business.The key terms and clauses of the agreement made with Chalco were published in the press. People may have read it.Let me elaborate on it a bit since it is often being discussed. $70 was the selling price we agreed on for the first 1 million tons of coal mined from the surface area or fourth seam once we start overburden stripping and reach coal in the East Tsankhi area of the TT deposit. Adjustment of market price indices or variations in prices in the 4 major Chinese coal markets and port of entry will be applied subsequent to supply of the first 1 million tons of coal and price indices will apply to both falls and rises in market price under the terms of the agreement. As I remember the price of raw unclassified coal mined by Erdenes TT from the fourth seam grew slightly and reached $71 or $72 in late 2011as adjusted by these indices. Unluckily, international  and Chinese coal prices dropped a lot starting from the spring 2012. This situation still goes on. As reported whereas it was about $66 in the third quarter 2012 and decreased to $53 in the fourth quarter it increases $56 in the second quarter 2013. A regional coal price and rapid price decline at the macro-level aren’t directly dependent on us but the international economic situation, in particular, demand in Chinese market. Unluckily, as experts state a period of a decline in demand for mining production on market and started coal price lowering circle has started. This is the same in reality. The price of the coal handled and prepared by Energy Resources and sold at $150 at the Gants Mod port of entry inside China’s border in late 2011 and decreased to below $80 in late 2012 and by comparison with this decline the percentage fall in Erdenes TT’s raw and unclassified coal price was relatively small. First, $70 was the price offered for the buyer the TsagaanKhad stockyard that is inside 27 km distance to border of Mongolia. People confuse the price with that at the Gants Mod port of entry inside China’s border. The cost of transportation and logistics is substantial for shipment until the border. Second, this is the price of the raw coal from the fourth coal seam only neither sorted out nor preparedand from the partof slightly low quality in which the operations just started. Prices of raw coal from other seams other than this  third  seam and also handled and processed coal will be agreed on in the future under the terms of the agreement. Basically, had the operations been able to continue nonstop as planned,much deeper overburden would have been stripped at the mine and coal from the third seam would have been reached by now. As a result, the price of coal would have been able to be renegotiated  and agreed on. We planned to reach deeper coal seams by the spring or summer 2013 and then agree on an adjusted price. We also planned to repay the upfront payment obtained in advance of coal supply and start to receive sales revenue. Some politicians told groundless lies like “the agreement under which coal will be sold at the same price - $70 for 5 years was made.” There is no such thing. People who could make such an agreement weren’t working at Erdenes TT. The more expeditious the CHPP is brought into operation the more revenue comes from coal expert.

Now, as we see it to make an agreement on long-term and regular supply is crucial for any business. There were quite a number of cases in which private companies’ export was downin the absence of agreements on long-term and regular coal supply. It seems that as far as Erdenes TTis concerned one strength of the agreement is a regular buyer and obligation to supply in any event.

The agreement made with Chalco is the agreement that will continue to be in effect for another 5 years after the upfront payment is repaid in coal. Since investment in mining is risky business a long-term coal supply agreement is important. This agreement was made based on the classical principle that a coal price is fixed on an annual or quarterly basis and price variations adjusted with indices under such an agreement. Moreover, international investors believe that reliable off take agreement and client are important in doing international listings and IPO. As Erdenes TT currently has the agreement it is able to supply coal regularly. Basically, other coal exporters can’t sell coal so they have stopped coal supply. I heard that even some of them couldn’t obtain the payment for the coal they had supplied. Erdenes TT got the payment in advance though it didn’t supply the coal. However, the Government took and distributed most of the advince money-payment to the people and everyone used it up. This is what happened. In simple logicsit is like one obtained a amount of money (hundred millions of USD) from a man (even a one) in advance telling him that he will do this. Who was beneficial in this case?If all this money had been used for mining development, project, and business today, the company would have been at a better level. If it had done international listings and IPO before the decline in the stock market its export would have grown and it would face no financial issues. Since we were a state-owned company we deviated from our business principles due to inescapable pressure of the Government (company’s shareholder) that exercised the right of the shareholder under the Company Law. Everyone was aware of it at that time. All our reasoning was ignored. Now, you should recall that time once again.

The coal market becomes highly competitive. While we are arguing over the railroad the Russians develop their major deposits and stimulate their export to China. How do you see this development as an outsider?

This is something I regret. TT coal export and transportation by railway were of great significance but 4-5 years were simply wasted due to competition for political and business interests.The railroad project could have been launched through flexibility and amicability. With this waste of time others not us will win. As saying “instead of having nothing” goes now, the railway should be in place expeditiously and without undue delay despite the waste of time. This is very important.

Denzen, recently resigned Chairman of ETT, said that much funding including employment of people paid 500 million tugrig was disbursed inefficiently. I would like to ask you about two foreign Deputy Directors.

Foreign Deputy Directors were employed owing to ambitious guidance provided for Erdenes TT to do international listings swiftly and need to do it in early 2012 if possible. The international investment banks also pushed and advised this. The annual salaries of the two people together were like this amount around 400 hundred thousand USD. This was compliance with international standards. One of them Chief Operating Officer (COO) was experienced in mining and economics and had good knowledge of Mongolia. The other one was a young man majored in finance and accounting. I assume as the IPO was delayed the foreign executive mangers were discharged. As TT is an extensive complex project I had 4 Deputy Directors in charge of respective lines of business. The two were foreign and other two were Mongolians who were from the Mongolian People’s Party (formerly Mongolian People’s Revolutionary Party at that time) and Democratic Party. It can be understood that these two people were appointed as per guidance. Erdenes MGL and Erdenes TT had quite a number of young good people. To be available and work together day and night in case one has tight schedule is an excellent quality. I worked with several over-30-year-old young people such as Temuulen, Tsenguun, Batbaatar, Bilgee who had good performance skills and high proficiency in languages. They worked on the -worls class projects and gained much experience and all learned new things. These peoplewill deserve credit and value at both state-owned and private companies. I learned that some people who knew how to do their work and ordinary employees were groundlessly fired and reshuffled after me. Basically, quite a number of people had been employed and trained for this company in the past several years. Qualified personnel, in particular, state-owned companies, will be needed to engage in major international agreements in the future.

Once I want to have open discussion with you I would like to ask you about political pressure. There was a sensation that you were criticized with the bidding for trucks and truck tires around Tg 5 billion. However, new Chairman of the Erdenes TT Board of Directors was charged with Tg 17 billion bidding and handed over his position recently. What do you think of it?

As I see it this is intentional intrigue based on misguided information. I did respond to it at that time. Even now, I will respond to it. There is nothing to hide. Bidding for heavy duty dump truck tires was announced due to needs for mine development and approved procurement plan. The tires procured through the bidding are standard ones.They were supplied when I was working there. I was told that there was a 3-cm disparity between the new heavy duty truck tire and old one. All of them are standard ones. It is like 17-inch or 18-inch jeep tires. There was a slight hesitation in case the new and old tires were put in parallel at the front or at the back and however, technically, there would be no problem if the new tires were put at the back or front axes. Technical opinions had been given and were recently given after inspection. As reported these tires are almost used up at the mine. The bidding for tire procurement was properly held by a bidding committee set up under applicable laws and in conformity with approved budget and plan.

Given 10 heavy duty trucks the purchase was conducted due to urgent mining development needs and pursuant to the related provisions of the Procurement Law. Erdenes TT would have had to start its coal export in August 2011 and mined 1 million tons of coal within that year as per the approved mine plan. We were proceeding after we entered into the coal supply agreement with and got our sales revenue in consecutive installments –$50 million and $100 million from Chalco. We were under pressure from the Government and Ministry of Finance that pushed us to put the money into the Human Development Fund quickly and not to disrupt revenue in violation of the Budget Law approved by the Parliament. I got the Internal Supervision Section to inspect the mine development and coal export in late September 2011. Due to the delay in supplying some heavy duty trucks for overburden stripping and development disruption of the objective of mining 1 million tons of coal within that year and mine plan was expected. We gave and exposed an opinion “We can mine about 600-700 thousand tons of coal. Order and supply timing of large mining machinery and equipment is estimated to be at least half a year and year. There fore, I as CEO had consultation with the people in charge on how to execute the annual mine plan. As a result, we made a decision to purchase and operate some more heavy duty trucks immediately since this was an urgent situation. There were a number of reasons. First, we needed to implement our mining plan. Second, it would tarnish our reputation in front of the business partner unless we supplied coal in the amount agreed upon under the agreement. If this led to delay in transferring the upfront payment for coal the company would be unable to put the money into the Human Development Fund. Unless the money were put into the Human Development Fund the election pledges made by the ruling parties – the Mongolian People’s Party and Democratic Party would be unable to be fulfilled and Coalition Government may totter. Due to multiple reasons like this type of pressure we procured 10 heavy trucks made in China within the approved budget and used them for the overburden stripping. This means that we procured 10 trucks available for operations at the rate 2 western make trucks could have been purchased at. As I understand if a truck cost $1 million were procured at $2 million or 50 trucks were procured at a company that needed 10 trucks it would be business some one pushed and violation of laws. In addition, it may be said that to make a state-owned company rush like to find and bring in money quickly and say the election is coming upis almost pressure. Since the 10 trucks had almost the same productivity it was even efficient. These trucks operated nonstop at the mine for about six months and performed the functions. They performed much work in stripping the overburden or removing the earth out of the mine which was recorded in the mine logs. This isn’t a surprise. They are typical heavy trucks many of which operate in others mines in Mongolia. An Australian company that was taking over the mining operations at the Eastern Tsankhi minein the spring 2012 to operate as a miner said that they didn’t operate with Chinese trucksand hence, the 10 trucks were parked in the parking area outdoors. However, in the meantime, due to an act of irresponsibility that resulted in a theft of the accumulators of the trucks they screeched to a halt. We planned to use them to building mine roads and new camp, dig trenches, and remove the eart after using them to strip overburden as the mine was expanding. Erdenes TTs’ operations haven’t progressed much since the end of the last year and consequently, these trucks may look useless. I heard that a technical opinion was given “If services and parts like accumulators were provided for the trucks they would have a perfect capacity.”This is abusiness-related thing that may arise in implementing a project and running a mine. This decision was made in light of the company’s urgent need. Speculation that totally we were pushed to procure useless old trucks and so forth is really inaccurate. The current management of Erdenes TT tends to cavil at the people who did and managed work sitting facing back and stepping back instead of taking available opportunities to expand the operations and make the machinery operate and this isn’t a good thing.

What challenges you faced and what successes you made in your business as Executive Director of the gest state-owned company? You may have had various pressure and requests often? How did you manage all these?

Basically, being Executive Director of a state-owned company is laborious business. You have to take action considering not merely business but also many other factors. However, I was very conscious of my role in and responsibility to launch development of a importent strategic deposit all Mongolian citizens become shareholders of. I relied on my 10 years legal and public service expertise and experience I gained working in geology, mining, and international business for about five years. As I was aware of political and politicians’ behavior to some extent, in addition to focusing on the company’s principal business operations I balanced them against political and other factors. I managed the TT deposit development in person at the executive level, set up a mine in an empty area in a short period, exported coal, brought in money for the Government or Human Development Fund, and engaged in starting work tolet citizens benefit from minerals as well as managed to the company’s operations stable and steady. I also made IPO arrangements. Briefly,I did work. Starting a world-class mining project is significant undertaking. This was my fate. ТT is a large-scale project that can help you know your “ego” better and gain a great deal of experience. I count myself as a person who works in Mongolia’s interests as opposed to some people, populist politicians who tell various lies, twist with overtones, and politicize. Personally, I did feel it. Only time will tell how others will feel it.

A state-owned company experiences various pressure quite often. I referred to it above. I opened a Western Tsankhi mine in the company’s interests while PM’s and ministers were hesitating and unable to make a decision. This company is not merely a state-owned company but it has a significant feature. The company has very high responsibility as the first Mongolian state-owned company whose shares are held by every Mongolian citizen and that will do a national listing on the Mongolian Stock Exchange and international listings and so forth. Therefore, from the outset, I attached great importance to transparency and conformity with international business principles. There was various pressure and requests. I may have taken care of some requests as long as they weren’t in violation of laws and principles. I responded that it was impossible in case it was impossible and that I couldn’t do it in case it was something I couldn’t do.

Many people understood that the person from the Mongolian People’s Party was removed when you resigned as you wished. However, you are a one of the founding members of the Democratic Party. You may have been able to remain unless you had wanted to resign. What was the reason you made this decision at once? You provided an explanation. However, I suppose that the reason you resigned was slightly different?

To be honest as an individual I was fed up in the end. I had quite busy schedule being away from home and working daily for 12-13 hours almost regularly for over 4 years. In addition, there were always wrangles. Anyone criticized, hindered, or delayed business though they didn’t have full understanding of the subject matter.Given the party affiliation and origin I am part of the democratic party. I engaged in political negotiations as a representative of the democratic coalition in charge of law and contract in the course of the democratic revolution in the spring 1990 when I was very young. I engaged in drafting the first bill on political parties and signed the historical document on the creation of a new democratic permanently working  parliament on behalf of the new social democratic party. I managed the Administration that was the kitchen of the Parliament and designed and drafted bills and revised laws “in my office room” (“not in the bedat home”). I also engaged in drafting the Constitution and was a member of the Working group in 1991-92. As I was in charge I also engaged in drafting amendments to the Constitution in 1999 and 2000. When I was Executive Director, Erdenes MGL LLC, I was responsible for preparation, paperwork, drafting and logistics of the Oyu Tolgoi (OT) Investment Agreement and signed a Shareholder Agreement on behalf of the Mongolian side. I established Erdenes TT in person and opened and operated a mine. However, I didn’t ask for anything or fawn on politicians or join a group or faction. Unless at least I recall it myself sometimes some people started to talk about me, like I was someone in between, at will. As far as I am concerned my fate is like I engage in performing important tasks at special and historical times.

What course of development should be right one for a state-owned company in the future? Why can’t Erdenes MGL and Erdenes TT operate for profit independently like a western company or Chalco from China? You may have some thoughts as founder of these companies?

Unless Erdenes TT does national and international IPO, becomes a public company, and conforms to stock exchange standards parties and politicians will “gnaw” from all sides. If there were misunderstanding and denial every time a new government is in place following every election and political influence exerted often it would be harder in the future. As reported, in addition to western companies even a Chinese state-owned company operate for business and profit independently as its mission and objectives are clear. If you would like to gain return from state-owned companies and have efficient ones you should operate them in conformity with business principles.

Foreign investment in Mongolia is rapidly declining. There are many reasons like instability of the legal and political frameworks and however, reconsideration of the agreement made with Chalco was quite significant. A number of people such as Vice  Minister of Economic Development Chuluunbat made such remarks. To argue for reconsideration and termination of and criticize every agreement you had made as bad and inefficient may be a factor in tarnishing Mongolia’s reputation in the world and business relations. What are your thoughts on it?

Basically, in Mongolia’s current circumstances rapid development and prosperity can be achieved thanks to foreign investment if everything else goes alright. Otherwise, it would be hard. The country has many disadvantages and sensitive and small and can’t move ahead far by itself. Mining is the only key industry that can attract foreign investors. Others industries such as banking, finance, and tourismcan develop based on financial resources accompanied and infrastructure and interests created by mining if everything else goes alright. Mongolians discuss it at different levels and however, precise understanding and realization of it with joint objectives are quite inadequate. As long as you wisely balance your interests and foreign investment and foreign investors’ business interests, mega projects and programs will move ahead. If you care more about either of the interests, things will not move ahead harmoniously. Naturally, an issue and life move ahead in this way. As you asked, a tendency to deny and back out of what is already agreedis quite troublesome. It is not good for not merely entrepreneurs but also international relations. As far as the agreement made with Chalco is concerned I made detailed remarks – it is mutually beneficial, in particular, more beneficial for the Mongolian side in business terms. TT coal sales is secured in any case under and many issues are incorporated extensively in it and our formation of a partnership of the largest state-owned company of our southern neighbor in the south which is our major coal market is consistent with our country’s economic policy and concept. 

Essentially, promotion of foreign investment has been under discussion since 1990?

In this sense, as long as a household and country get revenue and money, opportunities come along. It would be great to use opportunities and channels foreign investment and funds come in. They shouldn’t be restricted under various laws which aren’t in force yet while things are just starting. If such foreign investment funds are devoted to projects, programs, and business, create jobs, and contribute to household revenue, this is a major goal. The assistance provided by foreign governments as donors and financing of projects and programs implemented by NGOs made a tangible contribution many people and households to a certain extend in the 1990s as Mongolia was poorer. A new era of geological exploration and prospecting started in line with the opening of the OyuTolgoi, impacts of China’s rapid development, and growth in demand for many mineral products and in this era (2003-2011)foreign investment flooded in Mongolia for the first time in business terms. The economy grew, many jobs were created, households had revenue, ger district households had cars within the bounds of possibility, and it looked as though you would hardly ever find any Mongolian who wanted to work as an apartment house doorkeeper, parking lot guard, or garage guard if you proceed in this paceand you may have started to “dream” of rapid development and becoming a next Qatar. Due to the factors I mentioned earlier in response to your question, instability in our policy, political arguing in particular, uncertain international financial and economic recession, and decline in demand for mineral productsit seems that there is much hesitation about having the same dream again in the future. Mongolia may not have completely missed opportunities. However, foreign investors have drawn a negative and careful conclusion about our investment framework. It is said that in case foreign investment is disrupted the restoration takes 8-10 years. There is saying “Market is very noisy place.”In simple terms, it means that bad or good news about a market investors invest in and its investment framework reach the investors with a lot of noise. A noise related to the Oyu Tolgoi and Chalco agreements reaches the investors in this matter. If Erdenes TT does international IPO they would have to consider this issue seriously. 

If we recall what you learnt in secondary school there was a period in our country’s history in which people swung as “easterners” or “westerners” (extreme tendencies) 80-90 years ago. In comparison to our time, it seems that that some level similar period is back. As Baabar said just after a small amount of “foreign funding and capital” comes in they were removed either intentionally or unintentionally. Whereas a law entitled “be enriched” was made and advertised with a slogan, state property, enterprises, and plants had been being privatized over the past 20 years, now, growth in state participation and engagement, distribution of shares to everyone, and “collectivization” are underway, and otherwise, rulers and politicians exert stress apart from that engagement. Such a picture is in place. I am simply talking about this tendency not giving specific examples. There is an opportunity to change the tendency. I wish that the number of “red revolutionaries” (anarchist extremists) “with pistols” who can bias and destroy things wouldn’t grow. 